373: How To Achieve The Career of Your Dreams And The Salary You Deserve w/ Mandi Woodruff-Santos

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373: How To Achieve The Career of Your Dreams And The Salary You Deserve w/ Mandi Woodruff-Santos

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This week in the guest chair we have Mandi Woodruff-Santos, a globally recognized career expert, founder of the MandiMoney Makers, and co-host of the three-time WEBBY award winning podcast, Brown Ambition. With 6 million podcast downloads, and over 80,000 followers across socials, Mandi is on a mission to help women of color achieve their wildest financial ambitions.

 In this episode she shares:

  • How to be professionally selfish and achieve your dream salary
  • The risks she’s taken by pivoting often in her career, and how they’ve paid off 
  • Her journey from corporate, to coaching as a side hustle, to launching her podcast and expanding her empire

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Nicaila Matthews Okome 0:00

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Hey friends, welcome welcome back to the show. It's Nicaila here, and today in the guest chair I have Mandi Woodruff Santos. She is a globally recognized career expert, founder of the many money makers and CO hosts of the three time Webby Award winning podcast brown ambition. Through her online career coaching community, the Mandi money makers of Career Academy, she is on a mission to help women of color achieve their wildest financial and career ambitions. With over 6 million podcast downloads and over 80,000 followers across IG Tik Tok LinkedIn and more. Mandi has created a unique community of bipoc baddies as she calls them, ready to stop settling for less and level up in their careers. Mandi is currently writing her first book on strategically quitting throughout your career. Yes, I said strategically quitting, and she has been featured on today, Dr. Phil, The New York Times, CNBC and so much more. I can't wait for you to hear what Mandi has to say. Let's get right into it.

So welcome. Welcome to the guest here, Mandi,

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 2:18

thank you so much for having me. I'm excited. Me too.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 2:21

Me too, because you are a woman whose method and approach to life and career is one I can 100% get down with. And I want everyone to know about your mindset around navigating the career space. Yeah. So let's take it back a little bit, though, I understand that you knew what you wanted to do. You're one of those people who from a young age, you knew you wanted to write and study journalism? What was it about writing that attracted you?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 2:49

I mean, you know, you mix a little bit of my mom was a bookworm with the fact that like social anxiety, I was a really heavy kid in the 90s. So you can imagine I was bullied a lot. So for me, it was an escape, like reading and writing. And so I would always like write my own stories. And yeah, it just grew naturally. From there. I remember, you know, being in fifth grade, and you know, people ask you like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I was like, I want to be a children's book author. And then as the older I got, I was like, Wait, that's not like a job you go get, you know, it's not like someone's looking to hire a children's book writer. So for me, I remember like, midway through high school being having this like, existential crisis of I can only write so what jobs are there? And then I learned about journalism. I just didn't know. You know, it's just so, so naive. And thank goodness, I did, because it has been really Yeah, it's been the foundation of everything I do. Even today. Even as a business owner, I use those same tools every day.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 3:50

So what was your first job out of college? Did you go immediately into a journalism job

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 3:55

funny, because I graduated in 2009, which was the it was technically not the recession, we had technically come out of it. But there's a lot of people like a lot of people are still losing their jobs, because industries are like lagging behind, you know, economic indicators. So like I was going into newspaper journalism at a time when that industry was just being hit by like marketing dollars. Were getting, you know, advertising dollars away that media made money back then they was getting ripped away. So it was not a great time to be a print journalism graduate. I still got a job offer at a newspaper in Georgia. And then thank goodness I had the Moxie to just turn it down because I had grinded through four years of school. And I started to travel for the first time internationally. While I was in college, I went on like a volunteer trip. And it opened up my eyes to this love of, you know, getting out of the country and seeing new places. So I turned down that job offer I moved to South America for several months to Chile and then I interned at a I say in Turn because it was definitely like free labor. And when I came back to the states the following December, it was around Christmas time I had like 16 US dollars to my name, and no job. And lo I can imagine and talk about, like, if it's for you, it will be there for you. Because what I got back, that Job was still open, or maybe they had filled it, but it didn't work out anyway. So I took it. So my first job out of college, other than the unpaid intern in Chile, trying to teach English on credential on the side. I was a newspaper writer in Gainesville, Georgia.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 5:36

I don't know if that's a good or bad sign that the job was still open. You tell us how long were you asleep?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 5:42

Well, that's you're gonna get right into it was pretty funny. Less than a month. I was covering education. The thing is, it was a decent job. I mean, I think it paid 16 bucks an hour like I was I borrowed my dad's old rusty, funky, Jimmy Jeep or Jimmy truck at the time. Like I had to wedge some cardboard into the window to keep it up. And mind you. This is like January, February, and it would be sleeting. And I'd be like, trying to fix the cardboard wedge to keep and there was a hole in the floor inexplicably. Anyway, so I had a beater. And then my uncle took pity on me let me live in his basement in exchange for free babysitting which I babysat my lovely cousins. What happened was I took that job. And two weeks later, I got an email from a magazine where I had interned during school, they had a job opening and they wanted to know if I was interested. And I was like, Yo, I mean, New York magazine to a 22 year old. Come on now. New York magazine writer or you know, Gainesville, do you know where Gainesville, Georgia is Gainesville, Georgia? No, you don't have heard education reached out to my Gainesville was Yeah, I mean, it Gainesville today is poppin. But back in the choices? Well, it wasn't it wasn't I'm writing a book right now. And I've actually gone back to it's so funny, because my email is like the my fossils. It's like, I'm a paleontologist, trying to recreate my mindset at 22. Because I went back and I still had those old emails from when I got the email, and emails to my friends, my family agonizing about my decision, I really was struggling because of something that I think a lot of people I coach now are stuck with as well, which is like, what are they going to think of me if I just turn around and quit? You know, not only did I turn him down in May, when he wanted me to take the job, but I'm gonna do it again. Less than a month. You know what, and he's gonna be really upset about it. And you know, I don't I mentioned the Gainesville times, I don't know if you remember me, but just gonna say the bridge was burned. But

Nicaila Matthews Okome 7:45

oh, the bridge was, you know, I guess there's no way not to burn it.

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 7:50

I would have been pissed to, like, come on, can you just get someone who's going to cover these board of education meetings? You know what I mean? Like, this is breaking stuff. But yeah, I got over it. And it was on those. I had a long drive between my uncle's house and to work. And I sent the editor at the magazine and email after I told him I think about it. Just this is just like to interview. You know, I don't know why I didn't just take the interview, at least. And I was like, You know what? I've thought it through. I'm getting over it. I'm gonna do you know, what aligns with what I want to do with my career. And I'd love to speak to you guys. And just Yeah, it's funny how stressed impressed I was, you know, back then about leaving and it all worked out great. Except for the part where I took the job and got laid off.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 8:35

Oh, no. Okay. We'll get to that next week. So you quit after you got the job, though.

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 8:40

In Yes. So I got it was about a two week interview process. It was pretty fast. Because they knew me already. I was like, probably the only person they were considering for the role. And yeah, so I got the job offer. And I didn't have to negotiate because my, the woman I was replacing she knew me for my it was her that wanted me to replace her. And she told me, You know what to ask for? And I just remember, it was so great to have that knowledge, you know, and to not get underpaid. Yeah. So basically a month after I joined I was it was my last day, and then I moved to New York.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 9:17

What would that take? I mean, first of all, I'm just admiring all of this, as you say Moxie at what? 22 years old. When did you get that? That sense of like, Alright, I'm nervous. I don't know how this is gonna look but I gotta do this

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 9:31

is gonna sound I haven't found the right way to describe this. But I told you I was extremely introverted, very shy, I was bullied. I was overweight, you know, or what society deemed overweight. I was not. And I went to schools where I was, you know, mixed race and I wasn't black enough. I wasn't wide enough, you know, and I wasn't rich enough or, you know, whatever. I was never the right fit for any clique. And at the same time, there was always and so I was Very quiet. And I was like, sort of retreated into myself and I would read and I would write, and no one really heard from me. But I had a very loud internal voice and I kind of always knew that I was gonna be some. It's Leo season, okay. All right. So we're revealing now that I'm a Leo anyway. But I had this like internal voice that just knew I was going to other I was good at, you know, things storytelling and stuff. So at the same time, I was super, you know, from a small town in Georgia sounds like a country song. But I didn't really get to see much of anything. And then it was when I started to travel, that this fire for new experiences this this, like burning desire for new beginnings, and new experiences sort of collided with my, you know, my hidden ego, or my hidden belief, I'll say, faith and belief in myself. And yeah, it was though it was those few months, though, when I was traveling alone through South America that I really, like, we were talking earlier about how, hey, once you raise a baby, during the pandemic, with no support, you really feel like you can do anything. And it was similar for me, in that I was like, if I can travel by myself, in a country where I'm learning the language, I don't know anybody, you know, and I don't have a lot of money, but I'm gonna make away for myself, I just kind of was like, I can do anything. And yeah, no one's telling me like, I don't have to do things on anyone else's schedule anymore. You know, because you go through college, it's the right thing to do. You do it in four years, it's all this and that. And I just,

Nicaila Matthews Okome 11:35

you're doing it often for your family, for your parents, someone else's expectation, it just felt like this time you were doing it for you,

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 11:42

I've always been suspicious of where the crowd is going, you know, which made me a great journalist. Oh, critically thinking. And so I think like watching human behavior as a kid, and then also kind of like being critical and not critical. But um, yeah, just suspicious of why everyone's doing the same thing and kind of wanting to just prove I can do it my own way that was always sort of inside me and still is, I resonate

Nicaila Matthews Okome 12:05

with what you're saying about being an introvert yet having this hidden fire and ego that is sometimes unexpected to other people, I remember, because introversion can sometimes present as shyness when I do something bold, but even having this podcast and, you know, like being on screens and all this stuff. I don't think anyone I went to elementary school would ever expect that. But I always felt like I could do it. I just am also an introvert.

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 12:33

And it's really frustrating too, because the world isn't used to or is not equipped to find people like us, and say, There's something inside you, you have to really look at people like us and see our potential. And it was always frustrating to me, because I always knew I had more potential than people around me because I didn't have all the, you know, the things that society associates with someone who's going to be successful. Like, I wasn't white. I wasn't I didn't have a penis. You know, I didn't. Like, I know a character flaw, right? Why didn't I get one of those? I chose the wrong door anyway. Because and also, I was very quiet and I will go into these like super. I mean, I went to University of Georgia, which is all about being a pro and like, yeah, Georgia football. And, you know, there's a type of person who is welcome to that culture in that space. And it wasn't like me, so. Yeah. So if you're listening in this feels like you just know Nicaila And I, yeah, that we see you and that it's okay. If people underestimate you from the outside. They don't know what's happening inside.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 13:43

Right. And I also resonate with going to a place where you know, I went to Michigan for grad school and I always try stuff right even though I know in my I know who I am deep down inside. I said you know what, maybe this is what do they like to say comfort Nicaila Let's step outside my comfort zone. Let's go to these football games. Let's go to these tailgates. See how we like it. And I was like, I don't like I am not down to chill in the cold yeah, right doing this it's okay. It doesn't mean you can't still thrive in life and even in that place, it's just do your own thing and stand in it. And that's the same thing in life too.

Eddie, who? Now you're here in New York, right let's go back to your journey. You're in New York. You mentioned being laid off How long were you at that job?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 14:42

It's you had to face first year after college was wild man I was in South America. I came back broke got a job yay. Got another job. Whoa, what do I do with this made that crossroad decision move to New York, you know, move to New York. My little brother. My mom are both like what is going on? If you just figure out your shit and stay somewhere, but I was following my gut, you know, when I made this big bold choice to move to New York with just a suitcase and like no place to live, I live with a friend on their couch. Anyway, I took a chance. And it's the beginning of a great, you know, novel or a good story. But then, two and a half months in, I was sent into I was brought into a conference room, not even by myself with another colleague, and we were let go, and like a 10% wide, you know, layoffs. And it was just funny because I thought back and I'm like, oh, you know, I was the only person that knew new hire orientation, like maybe I should have seen, oh, they hired me. But anyhow, I did get let go. magazine publishing in, you know, in the wake of the Great Recession, so I was not the only one getting let go. And in that mindset at the time, I'm someone who had made all these new beginnings and new changes and a kind of bopped around for the past, I don't know, like nine months since grad or actually a year since graduating. And honestly, for me, it kind of felt like, Alright, here's another new chapter, let's figure out what this one's gonna be. And that is the attitude that has fueled, I think all my career success is just sort of down for the ride, you know, things are gonna happen. You weren't panicked

Nicaila Matthews Okome 16:17

at all. Like, how am I going to pay this New York? Yes. How many there was that?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 16:21

I got some severance for like a month, I think and I was in, I was fighting New York Department of Labor for unemployment money, because I had no income. And yes, I was stressed about rent, because at that time, my my friend had kicked out her roommate and then asked me to be her new roommate. It's anyway, fun little drama. But yeah, so I was very much stressed. And I hustled you know, I got some freelance jobs. I was like, I remember one of my friends had a friend at CNN. And I think she took pity on me, let me transcribe an interview where she was interviewing a lot of meth addicts, it was very depressing. I transcript those interviews for her. Which, you know, now bots can do, but hey, so job, thank you got a little 60 bucks here. 60 bucks there. And of course, and it was because of that feeling of that financial insecurity that really fueled my interest and my the new career path that I was going to put myself on to, yes, do journalism, but cover finance and business so that I could learn to never get myself in that situation? Again, it wasn't the layoff that I was stressed about, because that can happen to anyone, you can't control it, it was the fact that what I could have controlled my money, I didn't have it together. You know, I hadn't saved I hadn't invested anything. So that yeah, that led me to the next chapter for

Nicaila Matthews Okome 17:43

sure accents. I think there's a lot of us who have learned a lot during a period of unemployment, you know, unemployment, laid the foundation for what is now side hustle Pro. And it also led to me having a mindset shift. So I'm curious if that happened for you, that mindset shift of, I am never going to put the power in their hands again, I think of an employer I think of a business as just that, like this is as much my choice, my relationship, my power as there so I'm not going to put myself at the mercy. And because of that I was okay with quitting a job. I was okay with saying no, pay me more. I'm not gonna take it unless you pay me more. So the same thing happened for you. Like, do you looking back think that's what made you start to develop that mentality of, as you say, quitting your way rich or being professionally selfish,

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 18:35

right? Professionally selfish. I like quit your way rich, a lot better. Quit. Yeah. I because I was so open to and use to starting new chapters, I was someone who would move across the world, you know, to other side of the world on a whim or move to New York because I wanted to and start a new chapter in my career felt the same. I didn't want to have a, you know, stay at the same place. I wanted to try different things and figure stuff out. And I also out of necessity, had to I was, like I said, covering business. And I would read the studies about what happens to college graduates when they graduate into a recession, and how long statistically it's shown that it takes us to catch up to our peers who graduate during times of, you know, prosperity, and it's a long freakin time. And I remember reading those stats, writing about them as a journalist and saying, okay, so what am I going to do about this? You know, this is a story that they say is going to be my own because I fall into this category of recession graduate, but I've always been someone who's like, that's not my story. I'm gonna change this story for myself. And so for me, I was like, I gotta make more money. I gotta catch up. I'm underpaid where I am because I been underpaid. You know, as I've had to take jobs out of desperation because I was let go. I took a job that I didn't that I was underpaid for and overqualified for, and I didn't have a choice and That's another reason why I was like, I'm gonna get my finances together so that I don't have to take a job that I don't want ever again. Anyway, I learned about this and I started to think I can ask for raises, which I did at my current job. And I think I was successful, like maybe once, but then it was like there was a ceiling and they didn't want to give me any more. And then from there, it was like, Well, how am I going to get more money, I need to get poached, I need to go somewhere else. It was very clear to me. And I'll give a big shout out at this point to one of my mentors, Raymond Boyer, who I'm devastated to say, We just lost him. Last week, he passed away. And I mentioned my email kind of being my, you know, treasure trove, like my archive of these moments in life. And I went back and read some emails from Ray. And man, Ray was the one really, who gave me this brilliant advice of, you know, don't stop interviewing. Keep yourself out there. You've asked, that's good. But keep your options open. And then they'll see how valuable you are. And I never forgot it clearly. So I credit Ray, and he was just an incredible mentor. As a young to a young college grads amaze. Yeah, he's not the Maxi.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 21:13

I love that I love. Yeah. When people who are ahead of us share that kind of advice or give us the Intel. We also don't be afraid to ask the worst they can say is no, you know, if you preface it with are you I don't know if you're comfortable sharing but asking salary asking ballpark, are you asking the band, as they like to call in? And a lot of tech companies like you know, what's the salary range? Because they will underpay? You? They will? If you say yes, they're like oh, great. Okay. Long this is your orientation date? Yeah. You mentioned moving into business journalism. So what kind of jobs did you start to take on to increase your income?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 22:03

Yeah, so I listen, I'm saying for a college graduate who studied print journalism, I think I did pretty damn well okay for having I didn't go back to school. Like some people during the recession. You you shelter in school, you go back to get your Masters, it feels like a safe bet. But at the same time, you're saddling yourself with so much debt. And thank goodness, I was covering the student loan crisis because I was like, Ananda, not me. I'm not gonna get me an account my cute little $8,000 because I went to a state school debt. Yeah, so for me, it was a it was going from my first business reporting gig was at Business Insider, which is now a huge company, but at the time was a startup. I was their first personal finance reporter. And then I made a name for myself there, I was really quiet. It was so Broly they I remember feeling so uncomfortable, because you know, startup, it was all Broly. And like, the bros were clearly the gods of the newsroom, and they would talk loud, and they would shout across back at each other. And I felt like a fish out of water. So nervous, but I did the damn thing quietly in my corner, as I've always done, and I became successful writing really popular personal finance stories that got noticed by a bigger fish, Yahoo Finance. So Yahoo Finance, poached me a couple of years after I joined. And then from there, just through connections, I got the opportunity to manage content for a personal finance startup. So like a personal finance comparison site where you could, you know, get the best loans get the best mortgage, that kind of thing. They were looking for someone to run their content. And at the time, my favorite tip for people is, or favorite sort of thing about, like, if you want to advance in your careers, I talk about intrapreneurship. So being intrapreneurial, within your career, like at your job. While I was at Yahoo, I wasn't just a reporter, I launched a video series because your girl did not study broadcast was not camera ready, like I am now. And I needed to learn and so I threw myself into the fire. I was like, I'm going to do this and it's going to be hell look uncomfortable. But thank goodness I did. And I launched brand ambition, all while I was at Yahoo. Oh, yeah, my podcast grown ambition. This was like 2015. And the growth that I was getting from those opportunities just told me like, I've got more to give. I don't want to just be a writer, you know, and Yahoo really wanted me to just be a writer. And so yeah, because they're like, can you just stay there, you know, is you're making things complicated. That's so interesting. Yeah. They gave me a chance to run a team and I was like, I can do that. And then I bounced.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 24:40

So there are two things that I want to call out. Number one, the fact that you were open to being poached going into other opportunities, seeing that okay, this has led me here. What are the common objections that people give you when you recommend that they also quit their way rich? What are some of the common objections then, you know, what do you have to share so people can get out of that mental block and see that there's opportunity for them once they quit.

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 25:07

Yeah, I think that people imagine that like, first the word quit, I try to take the power away from that word quit to make us feel like it's negative for

Nicaila Matthews Okome 25:16

me to you or my person. Best friends

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 25:19

are also wearing the perfect complementary color right now this like gorgeous teal, and it's hot. Yeah,

Nicaila Matthews Okome 25:26

you guys gotta check us out on YouTube saying, but people put so much sauce on this quit they have aligned it with this, like failure or lazy mentality and all this other stuff. But you know, what's your persona,

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 25:37

even when I was bopping around from Chile, to the US and different jobs in New York, and you know, my mom, it made her uncomfortable. Like, can you just stay somewhere, stability is, you know, predictable I want but it's, it comes from a place of love. And I think we all just want of course, you want to be stable, you want to like, know where you're going to eat every night and have maybe some people like you want to know that you'll have someplace you know, warm to curl up. And at the end of the night, and you know, that you have, you know, this is where that goes, this is where this goes, you have your routine, all of that. But at the same time, I had learned so early in my career by being let go, that even if I wanted to be stable, it still wasn't up to me, if I was going to work in corporate America, like it was never going to be within my power to make stability. So I learned early on that job stability is a myth. You know, it really is. And for me, if I never wanted to go back to being that girl who was fighting for scraps from the Department of Labor for my little unemployment insurance money, if I never wanted to be her, again, having to take a job where I was overqualified and underpaid, where I was tried to negotiate and was basically laughed off the phone, then I had to control what I could control. So that was my professional brand. It was me attracting opportunities, that would have to compete for me, you know, because I was already employed. That means give me more money to join. And then make smart decisions about my money along the way. So keep my lifestyle expenses low, make sure I was investing aggressively and saving aggressively. And always be open to those new opportunities and hand in hand with that. Be comfortable making other people uncomfortable with my choices. And you asked me what's the biggest objection people have when it comes to quitting? I think one is a stigma to is the well what if this is a stable job, and I'm quitting and I get and they just kind of like fill in the blank with whatever horrible thing they think will happen.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 27:33

Right, right. Like, here, I don't know what it will be like they're

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 27:38

exactly the unknown if I leave this good situation. Yes. Fear of the unknown. And then on top of that, oh, man, I just knocked myself off track if you do this after eight weeks after you have a baby. So what did I say? Like that result? Oh, the stigma and also the not wanting to make other people uncomfortable? Because by you quitting, Mitch, from the Gainesville times is going to be really mad at you. Okay. And, you know, Jeff at Business Insider, who just got you promoted a year in advance, you know, is gonna probably not be thrilled. And you know, like Yahoo Finance really saw so much potential in you. But, yeah, I'm gonna go over here and you're like to a startup. Okay. Good luck with that. It's okay. To make people uncomfortable. But yeah, some definitely I have to coach a lot of women through that feeling. It's okay. Yes.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 28:34

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It's okay, it's gonna be okay. And speaking of that feeling. I yeah, I think anytime I've quit a job I've definitely had received shade received some icy responses. But what's interesting is I've also been in the position where I joined a job and I'm excited for who my manager is going to be. Then that manager gets fired or leaves and then I end up thrown to the wolves with some crazy folks. There's no stability in that, okay, like you need to leave because also other people will you'll be shifted around like a game of checkers easily and they will not care and the This is not to say, Okay, this is not a job. It's not a career bashing session. This is a how do you optimize? Oh, no, and you're doing so that you're making the most money you can to do what you want with that money, whether that's invest in your side hustle, or maybe make that leap when you're ready. How do you set yourself up to get there? So when is your book coming out? By the way?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 30:21


Nicaila Matthews Okome 30:24

will be you're on the lookout for it.

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 30:26

Yeah, well, it's gonna be called quit your way, right? I

Nicaila Matthews Okome 30:28

can't wait. So yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. I love hearing this because I, I feel like I'm talking to my friends. I know so many friends and people who I hear these things from, they're like, oh, you know, I don't want to gap on my resume. Guys a gap on your resume never killed? Nobody. I promise you. It'll be okay. I promise you, it'll be okay.

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 30:50

You know, What's scarier than that story they tell themselves is the unknown to them, like they brother believe a very weak myth, a very weak, you know, assumption, because it, it takes away the chance that they would have to do the scary thing, which is to, you know, right. So yeah, I 100% get it people like those little myths, because it makes them feel comfortable.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 31:12

Yeah, I want us to optimize our salaries, especially as black women, because if you're with a company for 10 years, and you're getting a two or 3% Raise, you know, every year like, that's not cutting, but when you are able to go to another job, which by the way, you should be looking for that while you're at one job, right? So as many said, you're more competitive, you can make bigger jumps in your salary, rather than waiting on that small little kicking each year if you didn't get that, you know, based on if we're in a recession or what have you. So that's another thing that I want you guys to take away from what Mandy said as well. It's brush up that resume now when's the last time you brushed it up? Right? Put your name in the pot. Now do a couple of interviews every you know, every month, just keep yourself fresh. Don't feel like oh, I don't want to be distracted by that. I'm trying to be great at my job. Yeah. Okay. Maybe get through this project, or you know, this busy quarter. But then when things slow down a little bit, like, just brush up that

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 32:15

resume. Isn't it funny, but like maybe don't give your job? 100%? Maybe give him like,

Nicaila Matthews Okome 32:22

Quietly, quietly, just give

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 32:24

them like, I know all this talk about well, people working from home Sorry, guys.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 32:29

This is controversial. Okay. I know it's controversial. I

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 32:32

don't work for y'all. Tell me I can't say this stuff. Isn't that great? I mean, okay, look and be like, Get off my show. But I think providing

Nicaila Matthews Okome 32:42

No, no, no. Yeah. What do you really mean by that, though, because I don't want to be, you know, acting like we're just saying, Don't be good employees. But

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 32:50

no, that's not what I mean. I just mean, do not sacrifice your family, your friends, your life, you know yourself what you love to do, and put everything into a job that could easily drop you. Like, what are you going to have? It's sort of like, it's like, you know, people who get into a relationship and then cut off family, friends don't pursue their own interests and passions, and they get dumped, or they realize they leave, right. Hey, guys. And it's like, what do you have? What do you have to call your own and I was always very focused on I want something that I own. So the podcast, I own this, you know, it's my IP, you know, and maybe for you, it's not an entrepreneurial pursuit, although if you're listening to side hustle Pro, probably it is, you have something else and it's okay. I think that employers have unrealistic expectations that their workers are going like this idea that you're gonna get me 110% everything you got. And doesn't mean I'm not going to be good at my job. Because 85% of me as a writer is pretty freakin good. You're gonna get that story written, right? But I'm always going to save energy and time for other things. It's going to make me more professionally resilient. And professional resilience is so crucial. You know, I always say in interviews, like if there's one phrase you sort of leave other than quit your way rich that think you know of me it's professional resiliency, and how can you build yourself up to be more? Yeah, so that you can bounce back, you know, from anything that is out of your control, and young right, how to getting you know, having that professional brand people noticing your work, being good at what you do networking, keeping that LinkedIn profile poppin and engaged with it. That is all part of putting, you know, it's all part of putting your sort of life preserver on first and right, yeah, insulating

Nicaila Matthews Okome 34:38

conference, networking, in addition to professional resilience. Just having that frame of mind of I'm not just going to be laser focused and not looking at anything else. It's keeping your skills sharp. So by having a side hustle, often your side hustles without even realizing it. They actually make you a better employee. Um, Whether it's you know, learning more about video and then doing things with video at your job, or for me, I was doing social media on the side always. So out doing social work, I just got better and better at it. And those are things that they were never going to teach me. So I had to teach myself. Yeah. And then you also mentioned that employers have this unrealistic expectation that employees will give 110%. And they do that because they could actually convince a majority of people to think like that as well. Like, you know, we give you everything, you have everything here, we love you, we're family, you know, you can get this promotion and that promotion, don't buy into it, guys. Don't buy into it, okay, you can be dropped because, you know, such a such tech company wants to have a better stock report. So they're gonna just slash 10% of their workforce, and boom, that stock price goes up. And you are the collateral damage. Okay,

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 36:01

exactly. I mean, again, it's like, it's not about not being good at your job. But it's about first of all, you're not going to broadcast I do my job. 85% as well as I made the cut.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 36:14

You won't get a broadcast. I'm not talking about coming in late. I'm not talking about like, eating breakfast for the first hour. No, no, I'm saying I don't want you staying up till 3am Every night, losing sleep, losing weekends, losing hair, letting these people stress you out. Yeah. And not saving anything for yourself. That's what we mean.

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 36:34


Nicaila Matthews Okome 36:39

Let's go back into your side hustle though. So why did you start brown ambition podcast? And was it just you as a solo podcaster at first before Tiffany joy no,

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 36:48

I tricked her very early on into coming along.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 36:54

Did you guys know each other like

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 36:56

indirectly because I as a as a journalist, I had done a story on Tiffany because she had just launched the budget nista and I was always looking for blogs were a big thing back then. And I was always looking for blogs written by people of color to just diversify because of course, like anything, it was very. My friend Burnett says hello mail jalapeno hella stale. I always steal that from her. Anyway, so I did a story on tiff we met at a conference in person and we just hit it off like you and I are and as as two introverts, we went on a walk together just to like decompress from the the aliveness of a conference just like so much in your face. And as a journalist, I was seeing that I was seeing that more podcasts were coming. And I just thought it would be a cool way to create my own voice and to reach a woman of color audience because, yeah, a lot of the readers I was reaching at Yahoo Finance didn't look like me, and I just wanted to have my own thing. And I thought it sounded fun. And Tiffany, we talked forever and there was no lol in the conversation, you know, and I thought that with her personality and I was right because she's a wonderful she's just incredible. And with my know how my understanding of podcasting and my ability to learn the technical side of it that we could have a show together. So that's that's what drove me and made it happen.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 38:19

And at what point did you start actually charging people as a career expert on the side and launch Mandy money that you're

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 38:28

gonna say the podcast, but yeah, podcasting. We didn't start making money until like, maybe four years in we finally got our act together and got an ad agency. Okay, yeah. And Mandy moneymakers. Yes. So that that was entirely different. Through the podcast, I really discovered my voice and my point of view, and it's, you know, I didn't I can't say that I foresaw it at the time. But I don't think without brown ambition, there would be the Mandy moneymakers career community that I built today. And that's because on the podcast, Tiffany was very much an entrepreneur had her own business was hiring people and running a business and all of that. And I was always down for the corporate nine to five girlies and I was repping. For them. We've been on the show for eight years now. And over the course of that time, I 10. Next, my, my compensation, I 10x my net worth, I learned about how to leverage equity stock and I quit six jobs in that period, you know, sort of six new jobs and really honed my expertise around this whole career strategy situation and got the feedback from the audience that I was giving them helpful advice that I was helpful in that way. So when cut to 2021 I had taken when I thought was going to be a dream job I was my last quit I told myself because after this I was going to be doing my own thing. I knew that I probably wanted to be my own independent person. But I had told myself that I need one more big gig you know, and I got that big get with a big paycheck with a big brand that was Super exciting to tell everyone about and it felt right. And I had sort of told myself, okay, I need to be aligned with this big brand so that when I go independent, I am more like I have more clout people take me more seriously. It was all BS. I already had everything I needed to go independent. I was just a little insecure about, you know, like, was I really ready. But thankfully, that dream job ended up not being a dream at all lasted a few months. And it was deuces and it was so gratifying because I could I could walk away knowing that it wasn't like I had done what that the 22 year old Mandy had dreamed of doing, creating financial security so that I didn't have to stay where I didn't want to, and I had options. And thank goodness, you know, for that girl who you know, created the person I am now because yeah, I was able to walk away not with a had a baby with daycare, you know, daycare in New York is not cheap, and a mortgage. And I had a year's worth of savings and time to think and to try some stuff. So I tried to be a consultant. That was kind of boring. Plus, I was just, you know, it's like working for corporations without health care, like whatever. And then I offered on a whim, I was like, I think I could do career coaching. So I'm gonna do some free sessions on IG, I offered them up and 200 women signed up and that was a wow, that was that was my proof of concept. So that, you know, yes, I didn't have to do them for free or so lonely.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 41:37

You can do career coaching. Absolutely. I could have told you that. It's just figuring out what is the best use of your time, right? Because now you're trading time for money, and you're only one person has that shifted? How you do career coaching? Has it shifted?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 41:55

Absolutely. I give a lot. I mentioned I'm an introvert. I know that about myself. It takes a lot out of me. Even after this podcast, I'm gonna go need to just be quiet for a minute. And career coaching, I realized I would try to pack my day. And this is the mistake that a lot of entrepreneurs make, especially like if you're, you know, wanting to do any kind of coaching or mental health, therapy, anything, you sort of, you leave nine to five, but then you create your own nine to five, and then it doesn't feel any different. Like, wait, I'm still hustling. And even though the boss is nice to me, because I'm the boss. It's still exhausting. So career coaching, I would try to pack in like four sessions a day. And it was I had nothing in the tank for anything else. And I realized this is not sustainable if I'm just going to charge one for one session, and I'm not giving everything I can during these sessions, because I'm just so exhausted. So I immediately started to think about ways to diversify my income streams. So yes, I was charging. Eventually I did start charging, I think 150 per career coaching session and eventually increase that to 250 for a career coaching session, but then I six months after I did the free sessions, I began to work on Mandy moneymakers, which was an inclusive community of women of color. And I was going to offer live coaching like live teaching teaching modules. Up to eight weeks, I would show up live once a week to teach live and then but then they would always have like access to me on Slack and things like that. That was the first iteration of end moneymakers. And I launched that January 2022. And I had 27 Women sign up. So I'll never forget. 27 is like my lucky number. And it was off to the races. I didn't wait until I had it perfectly built out. I didn't have the perfect business model or the perfect website or the perfect signup process. I had them apply through a Google form and I was doing so much manually. But I I had a proof of concept. I just did it, you know, and they were my guinea pigs, bless them. And I did a couple more cohorts and I just made tweaks, you know, and it was last summer when I was successful in that regard. Like I was making, you know, really good money, or decent money with my launches and enrolling new makers. It was happening. But I wanted another baby. And I wanted to write a book and those two things are time sucks when I tell you oh yes. So last summer I changed the business model again. You know, I went from teaching from having maybe moneymakers be about live lessons eight weeks in a row to on demand lessons with bi weekly coaching, you know and right, so I kept making, you know, changes and iterating on that and I added new business line and new streams of income like brand partnerships. A contributor role at Yahoo Finance. Yes, I came back

Nicaila Matthews Okome 44:58

look at that they're still later right If the bridge was opened, it was not burned, right?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 45:04

So yeah, so now I'm just like, how scaling back my business without scaling back my income. So I can have time for my baby and my book.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 45:14

Yeah, amazing. Thank you for sharing that, I think that will be very helpful for so many people who are trying to figure out how to structure, sharing what they know, monetizing that, because it's valuable, but also not chaining themselves to a nine to five type structure, because we're so used to that we're so used to that we don't even realize that we put ourselves directly back into that. So that was very helpful for me to to hear some different ways that you're scaling it back. One thing you said, we gotta go back to okay, you had like six different jobs and eight years?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 45:52

Yeah. How

Nicaila Matthews Okome 45:53

did you navigate the interview process? I'm sure there's some people listening who want to know, how do you navigate that? Does the question come up? And how did you handle it?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 46:04

I love this question. Because I mentioned at my core, I've always been a storyteller. And I think it is the most under appreciated, undervalued skill set as an adult professional as we can get. So storytelling is so essential. If you can whip your career into a story that has some action has some plot twists, you know, has some character. And if the person interviewing you is engaged, and I'm not saying be super, like you know, out there, and it's not about that, it's just about weaving together your story

Nicaila Matthews Okome 46:36

saying tell stories or not, not lie, lie,

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 46:39

tell the truth, but make the truth compelling, and make it so that they can see why you made your decisions. And as long as you made each decision, with integrity, with reason with logic, I actually think it makes you like a dynamic person to talk to during an interview, at least people kind of remembering you. But I never had to go in there and say, Oh, I just moved because they offered me more money. I never said that. And that was also not the truth. I did leave for more money. But I always also left for opportunities that were going to give me new skills, new challenges, new responsibilities, etc. And people interviewing you, they understand that you are an ambitious person and your skills were not being like totally leveraged, and you saw a new opportunity, and you took it. And hey, that opportunity ended up ending because of corporate layoffs, which were out of your control. And so you pivoted and you went in that direction. And then you know, when you went in that direction, you took a job that was that you were interested in, but maybe it wasn't your entire passion. And so when you had an opportunity for another job to come, how could you turn it down, it was time to sort of get back to where you started and refine that passion. And while you were there, you know, you got an opportunity to get promoted. But with that promotion, they denied you a raise and any additional equity. And when a competitor reached out to poach you and you gave the company a chance to match they said no. And it was really difficult to turn down an opportunity to get paid your market value and to be you know, using the same skills that you've been using and have this like upward trajectory. And you see Would you hire me I see.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 48:15

I would hire you and I'm like I would pay for your coaching it's all about language and yet presenting even your resumes there's so many resumes that are just flat like you know, yeah called called people did this push papers. Storytelling. Do you know what you have to start the storytelling from there? Yeah. How do you feel about you? Well, I know I hate cover letters. So I'm imagining you don't even

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 48:40

hate resumes. I think they're trash. Those resumes planned are always the thing that I don't listen, I don't actually hate the resume itself. But I see way too often is so many people using a resume as an excuse that they're not ready. Like, oh, I need to brush up my resume and then I'll apply. Let me tell you right now, I can't stop thinking about this Mandy moneymaker named Dominique because when I met her she this is just a few months ago, she joined Vandy moneymakers in the spring and she was working for a retailer as a buyer. She was buying handbags and didn't think that she was her resume was polished enough to start applying for jobs. Yeah, and I sit and I listen to this woman talk and she's young and she's brilliant. And I'm like if you don't, I'm gonna sit here and sometimes I do this I'm gonna sit here and watch you apply to some jobs right now because you are ready. And this resume is not what's gonna get you that job that might get you an interview but you like they need to talk to you and see you. And she started to apply that day stop telling herself that it wasn't perfect enough. And when I tell you not only did she get like a job within I think I feel like that week she had interviews she was telling me and I just came back from that leave and had a coaching call yesterday and she was tuning in and was like I live in California now. She was living in Ohio. I live in California. Now I'm working for a big retailer. I've got this incredible new opportunity, I negotiated a 10k relocation plus signing bonus like, and I was like, imagine what if you had just kept telling yourself, your resume wasn't good enough? So that's all I'm saying. It's just, it is a part of it. Right? You got to have the goods. But there's so much more. It's networking conversations, people, you know, creating relationships, being great at your job being seen being out there. LinkedIn,

Nicaila Matthews Okome 50:33

I'm glad you mentioned that. Because what also stops people I know you stopped me is when you see that, you know, experience, the years of experience required. You're like, Oh, I'm out. I don't qualify. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Ignore that part. You have to ignore. Yeah.

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 50:50

Well, I mean, also, it's funny, because as I was a hiring manager for five years, so I've seen it on both sides. I've managed a team of 30 staff, and then like, 100 freelancers. I negotiated from that side, too. I've reviewed resumes for jobs. And so I know, like, in my mindset, like I would write my own job descriptions. Me. I didn't go to school for writing job descriptions. And when you when HR is like, how many years of experience I'd be like, no, no, three, like it's random sometimes, you know, like, and it's, it's just something people put on there. So yeah, definitely don't let that be a deterrent for you just go for it.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 51:28

Just go for it. So before we jump into the lightning round, I'd love to know a little bit more about how the podcast has impacted your income earning opportunities.

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 51:38

I love Brian ambition, Tiff and I were just talking the other day and we're like, it's time to rev up this podcast situation because it's always it was always a side hustle. And we did fine. Like we got the ads and we were making like a few 1000 bucks a month to start with. And now more recently, we have you know, finally got the six figure mark for the year. Which is great. So honestly, like, if, I guess if I don't know, if we were married, we could have quit our job. That's weird. Anyway, but it's becoming income that could be sustainable. Like if I was if I didn't have a house and daycare and two kids or whatever. So we're really proud of that. But at the same time, we are it because it's been a piece of each of our world like it hasn't been the focus empires. Yeah, our empire. So Tiffany's always had this huge business a budget Nice. So the literature Academy, she's awesome. She has that going on. I have my nine to five career and I had brown ambition and now I have Mandy moneymakers and all this other stuff, but brand ambition where like if we just put like a little bit of our strategy behind the show, we could definitely be increasing our audience and getting more money from the ads that we're getting. So that is our you know, focus for, we're just going to be paying a little bit more attention to stuff. When you look at my story, and I have to have this talk with my Mandy moneymakers, too. And even when I give you know my webinar, where I pitch Mandy moneymakers, I make sure people know that, you know, my story is my story. It may seem to you from the outside that she launched a business in a summer and now she's you know, making five figure months and like doing really well and has a book deal and edited into my business. So like it didn't I didn't know it was but it all began a decade ago, I am reaping seeds that were sown, you know, when I was in my early 20s. And the same with the podcast. So because I started the podcast, I had built trust with an audience. I had built trust with lots of women who were going to be the exact same audience I was going to with my business and figuring out your audience and how to talk to them is the first step I think in becoming, you know, and starting a new business, especially like a service business, like coaching, for example, you want to figure out who's your perfect client? How can you get in front of them? I already had that piece figured out. I had the podcast, I had a platform. So when I went to IG, and my IG was private, I made my IG public and I think I had like 5000 followers. I still had people who knew me from Brown ambition, and were like, oh, yeah, I'd sign up for a free session from her. So I had built that trust authority. And I definitely don't think I could have, you know, stood up this business with the speed that I had had I not had that great. foundation from Brian ambition. I'm really glad that you asked that. Because for sure, it was a huge part of yeah, my entrepreneurship journey.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 54:29

Yeah, I just, I love talking to other podcasters for that reason, because it's so random, none of us set up or went to school to be a podcaster. And even when we started it, ever thought, oh, you know, that's gonna be my title for podcaster. So it's just interesting to hear how other people view it. And in addition to the objections that people give themselves about quitting a job moving into a better role, do you see people giving themselves objections, like you did before they leap into entrepreneurship. I mean, When they're ready, you know, when they have a business that's making consistent money, and then they just keep telling themselves different things like what kind of things do you see? And how do you help them? One of that you mentioned

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 55:09

consistent money, you got to drop that expectation. I mean, hopefully you'll make money. But will it be consistently the same? No, I tell you what, I really miss kind of being a W two worker and getting that paycheck and knowing when I was going to make, and you know, when you have a bad week, you're like, I don't want to do this thing. I don't want to sing for my supper, or you don't have to because you're salaried, you know. But at the same time, that salary is a cap, you're only ever going to earn that plus whatever sprinkles they might put on top in the form of like a bonus or equity. And when I was questioning what to do next, I remember my financial planner, when I had left that job, and I had, you know, my financial planner was the one who chatted to Helen, who was who said, Mandy, you could do your own thing. And I was like, really, she's like, Yes, I work with people all the time are doing, who don't have half what you have, and they're doing it. So you could do it. Not only that, but we can come up with your monthly number, like, let's see, what would your lifestyle cost you. And I love that because it's something that I take with me as a coach today. Often people's fear is, I can't afford my lifestyle with you know, I couldn't afford this life. But when you get down to it, and you look at what your expenses are, you know what you want to be saving, etc. Like, put some numbers behind that give your fear of face, you know, and my number was 10,000 a month. And Helen, which was less than I was earning in corporate and Helen, my planner was like, you can make this happen, but you need to know your monthly minimum income number, it's gonna give you something to shoot for, and yet absolutely did. So from the jump. I was like, okay, 10k a month and even when I was consulting and then eventually I didn't get paid for me any money for a while, but it gave me something to strive for. It made it less scary.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 56:57

Yes, I love that put a face to your fear. Alright guys. So now we're going to jump into the lightning round. But that I think is the perfect note to transition on put a face to your fear. It might not be as scary as you think when you see. So now, let's jump into the lightning round. Just answer the very first thing that comes to mind. Ready?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 57:21

Let's do it. Okay,

Nicaila Matthews Okome 57:22

so what is a top resource now Google that has really helped you in your business journey that you can share with the side hustle pro audience

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 57:31

let's hop resources. Oh, I love a couple of like tools that I use every day Trello and Zapier, Zapier za P ie r it is this great tool that makes all your tools talk to each other. So and it's crucial for Mandy moneymakers. When people enroll in my course, that something like triggers because you have the cart somewhere else that when they enroll in the course Zapier will make sure that they get that my email system to send them this cadence of emails. And my email system knows to add them to this like specific segments. So yeah, those are two tools that I that I like a lot and Trello is for project management so you can see all the stuff that you have on your plate. Got it

Nicaila Matthews Okome 58:13

number two, who is a non celebrity black woman entrepreneur who you would want to switch places with for a day and why

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 58:20

I just interviewed Lacey Redway Who is this celebrity hairstylist and she is I don't know if I want to switch Well, I just love her so much. But you said switch places I was like I want to hang out with her. But anyway, she gets to do like Tessa Thompson's hair and Emmy Rossum hair and she was just at the Shea Moisture box at the Beyonce show. And I was like her life looks on Yeah.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 58:45

That guy hadn't heard of her. I love this question because I learned new people to you know, reach out to an interview myself. Alright, number three, what is a non negotiable part of your day these days? You know, newborn toddler curious coffee.

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 59:00

I will have a nice cup of coffee and it will be an even if he's fussing while I'm making it. I'm having my frickin coffee.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 59:11

Number four, what is a personal trait about Mandy that has contributed to your success?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 59:18

What did I say earlier? I wish I could like have the one word for this, but it is the ability to expect more of myself than anyone else. And tell really good stories. Be a good storyteller.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 59:30

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Phenomenal storyteller. And finally, what is your parting advice for fellow women entrepreneurs who want to be independent, be their own boss, but are nervous about stepping away from a steady paycheck.

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 59:44

You have to add someone else's voice to the mix. It doesn't have to be a career coach, but you need to get someone else's voice with your own because if you just are thinking it all in your head, you know all the reasons why you're not going to be able to do something. But it's not until you sit down with someone or across from someone or you on Zoom or whatever, who's done the thing that you want to do, who has worked alongside people who've done the thing that you want to do when you get their voices in the mix, they will help you start to feel like all your fears, like they'll give a face to it, and they'll give you tools that you can use to overcome them. It's not to say that your fears are not warranted, of course, like a scary What if I don't make money? But okay, that's a fear, but like, how do you actually strategize so that you do make money. And, and don't forget that even if you go, you know, when you pursue a business, like you're, it's not going to take away your professional experience, it's not going to take away those core skills, take many money away, take brand ambition away, I can go get a job as a journalist and be safe and provide for my family. I am my own professional resiliency. And you have to think about yourself in the same way. This is a very long answer. But I would leave y'all with those two thoughts, because I know how, you know, those limiting beliefs can keep us back because we're just in our own heads. Okay, so expand your network, talk to more Nicaila is and Mandy's of the world who will help you see you know, what's possible,

Nicaila Matthews Okome 1:01:07

right? How it can be done. I love that. I truly hope that this episode, and all the episodes are the voices, the counter voices that you need to hear, so that you can devise your own path, and you know, do the damn thing. And then what did you say the second part of what she said, everything you say just resonates?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 1:01:26

You are your own professional stability, because they can't take your skills away from you.

Nicaila Matthews Okome 1:01:31

Right. As you step out, and let's say something fails, you actually now have new skills. Like if I want to go back into corporate like I'm looking at podcasting roles I'm looking at and you know, podcasting has grown and so are executives saying yeah, exactly like I'm going after different kinds of roles. So you it's not like you leave, lose your skills and also never are not acquiring new skills. Like you're acquiring new skills. So believe in yourself, y'all. So Mandy, where can people connect with you after this episode?

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 1:02:00

Oh, goodness, I'm at Mandy money pretty much everywhere. It's Mandy with an eye though. So you know, I forgive you if you spell it with a y, but I had to go and buy the Mandy money.com domain. What the Why I was like, let me just buy it and then redirect. Just in case. Okay, okay. $20 Well,

Nicaila Matthews Okome 1:02:17

you were using it. I was like, wow. But as far as the

Mandi Woodruff-Santos 1:02:21

money.com with an eye, and yeah, and social media and for sure. Check out Brian ambition. I feel like it is the perfect complement to side hustle Pro. And yeah, we got to have you on the show. Nicaila I can't believe we

Nicaila Matthews Okome 1:02:32

got to crossover Russia. Hey, okay. Yeah. Well, let's you know what's funny, I just texted with Tiffany today, but we were just wonderful. That was oh, I should have told her. I was gonna talk to Mandy. So I talked to both of you in one day. So yes, we definitely got to do a crossover. And thank you so much for being in the guest chair. This was awesome. Awesome. Awesome. You are definitely my people. And I can't wait to connect in person. So with that, you guys. I'll talk to you next week. Hey guys, thanks for listening to side hustle Pro. If you like the show, be sure to subscribe rate and review on Apple podcasts. It helps other side hustlers just like you to find the show. And if you want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram at side hustle Pro. Plus sign up for my six bullet Saturday newsletter at side hustle Pro, that CO slash newsletter. When you sign up, you will receive weekly nuggets from me, including what I'm up to personal lessons and my business tip of the week. Again, that side hustle pro.co/newsletter to sign up. Talk to you soon.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Meet the host:

Nicaila Matthews-Okome

Hi! I’m Nicaila, the Creator and Host of the Side Hustle Pro Podcast. I started Side Hustle Pro when I was a side hustler myself. I was a digital marketer at NPR by day, side hustler by night. Through the powerful stories shared on this show and the courage to launch my own initiatives, I was able to quit my own job and go full time with Side Hustle Pro.

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